Posted by Jeff Downs on July 08, 2002 at 23:55:55:
In Reply to: Re: End of discussion posted by MH on July 08, 2002 at 21:29:56:
> Starting with the tripe that you spew... one of the reasons I am no longer a 'practicing' Catholic.
Did you not make an accusation like this before without backing it up. This is not good scholarship. This amounts to
attack the person (me) and not being able to deal with what I've stated. If that is all you have, fine. You certainly haven't deal
with anything I've said and just be calling it "tripe" doesn't do ya any good!
> Dude, I believe what I believe.
And that is fine. You are free do believe what you believe. Its just sad that your world-view doesn't comport with reality (see my previous E-mail when this is shown to be correct).
> I'm set in my ways and I'm not about to change because I believe I am doing what is right for me and my family.
Perhaps, again, you can define "right" or "good" or "bad" for us. And let us know if your definitions of these terms are universal.
> Fact is: The Bible was written BY MEN. It may be the Word of God (I still believe this is - for the most part - true.) But if you want to throw stones - the Bible is a collection of religious beliefs by a group of humans.
And you know as the Word of God states "But know this first all, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (1Pet. 1:20-21). Its funny cause the very next verse tell us to watch out, because there will be false teachers. So the Bible assumes that there is some standard to which we can test if something is true or false.
> Have you ever played the game where you tell a secret to one person in the room and have them repeat to the next person and so on and then the last person says this secret aloud? It RARELY comes across with the same message.
Well, this is again, is just silly. Take your illustration and put it into writting. Say we pass one letter to 10 different people, for them to copy. Some of them might get it word for word, some of the might make errors. It is rarely going to happen that the would make the same error in the same places. So, when you bring the 10 letters together, it would not be hard to construct the original text. Now, here we are talking about the Bible, which as better manuscript evidence than any piece of literature in antiquity. Enough said.
> You believe that every single word in the Bible was guided by God's hand. I do not.
You are always entitled to your opinion. Doesn't mean your correct! The evidence is certainly not on your side.
>I believe it was written with good intentions to teach people what was right and wrong. I believe a majority of it is story telling. Morals to the stories. But if you want me to beleive that every word has its own deep meaning, I shake my head and let your words fall on deaf ears.
Well, let me quote another passage to you my friend "And if Christ has not been raised, you faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of men most to be pitied (1Cor. 15:17-19). Not sure what kind of morals you get out of such a passage that tells us that if Jesus did not raise from the grave, there is no point to the Christian life. As the text states "our faith is in vain."
It seems that you did not pay much attention in Catachism class. The Bible is certainly not just a book about moral. Actually the Bible is about Christ redeeming man from their sins. Its central focus being the person and work of Christ.
> What makes you so sure that YOU are going to Heaven? Can you positively guarantee that you will end up there? No.
Are you asking me a question here? Because you seem to have answered it already. Anyway, I'll take shot at it. First of all, I would say that you WERE probably paying attention in your catachism class on this point, because RC teaches that you cann't be secure in your salvation. But, the Bible states "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life." (1Jn. 5:13). Also, the book of Hebrews tell us that we are not the author of our salvation, that it is Christ himself and that he is alo the "perfecter of faith."
So, yea, I believe I'm going to heaven. Not by something I've done, it is the person and work of Christ alone that is our security. "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through the Lord Jesus Christ.
Let me give you a quick illustration of what justification is (which I know RC disagree with). I'm taking out of my sermon I preached this week, so my comments are also added:
=====ILLUSTRATON=====
Let me quickly give you a down to earth illustration of justification from the life of Martin Luther. He once looked over the rural farms of Germany and saw that the farmers would fertilize their fields with the dung of their farm animals. These were gathered into piles and spread out on the field. The dunghills themselves were not attractive in either sight or smell. Men and women, our sinful state is just as ugly and offensive. Nothing in and of ourselves could be pleasing to God.
In the wintertime, the snow would fall and cover the dunghills. The awful sight and smell would be gone, covered over by pure white snow. Please take note though, the dunghills are still dunghills. What has changed is there relationship to the external world. And so we too are still sinners. It is our standing before God that will change because the pure righteousness of Christ has been laid over our stench.
=====END OF ILLUSTRATON=====
> Then why should anyone follow your beliefs? Are you positioning yourself as being an equal to the Trinity? If so, better get your sunglasses cuz you're gonna be toastee where you are headed.
I'm trusting the testimony of the scriptures. It is not MY beliefs, like I made them up. So, I would never point anyone to myself. I point them to the cross of Christ. His person and work. Again, this is what whole Bible is about.
> I'm sure we do share similar beliefs in the Way of Our Lord and obviously we have our differences. It just sickens me when people just tell me that my beliefs are wrong (not different) but wrong just because they KNOW the Right Way. Face it - NONE OF US know jack sch!tt when it comes to the greater power and the afterlife. We would not be mortal men if we did.
And as the apostle Paul would say, then why don't we just "eat drink and be marry, for tomorrow we die." Meaning if this is all there is to this life, we mine as well live it up and do whatever pleases us. Why not. But, as you know the Bible has a different outlook. God is there. He has clearly made himself know and men are without excuse (Rom. 1) God will one day judge the wickness of mankind. And the wickness is a something He calls wicked. It is not something subjective or relative. There is a standared God set, we all have broken it in our active and passive disobediance. Therefore, we need a mediator and that person is Christ Jesus. He is the only one that can do and has done what needs to be done for us to have a right standing before a holy God (Jn. 14:6)
> A couple of parting questions:
> 1) Is there such a thing as 'Free Will'?
According to the Bible, there WAS such a things as free will. Now, the scriptures declair that humanity loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19) and that we are dead in our in our sin.
So, to answer your questions, I can say we have free will, but our will is NEVER pleasing to God and will NEVER choose the way of righteousness.
> 2) Is there a Purgatory?
Nope. And you know from your Catholic days that this is not found in the canon of scripture. It is found in the Apocrapha, which is not and never was historically part of the Canon of scripture.
> 3) Where does a soul go after suicide?
Now, this I really don't know. I would need more details. I can tell you that someone who commits suicide does not go to purgatory.
> If you answer - 'I Don't Know' - to these 3 questions, then I will respect your position. If you answer otherwise to any of these three, I will personally think that you a more full of sch!tt than when I first started typing this reply.
I'm really sorry you feel this way. You ask me to answer and then put me in a catch 20/20 situation. Because if I answer other than "I Don't Know" you will not respect me and think I'm full of "Sch!tt." Ohh, well, I guess I will have to take
my chances on not being respected.
> Everyone on this board has their own beliefs - right or wrong. Live with it and help them choose the right way not be preaching to them but by being their friend.
Along with my last E-mail and now your above statement (which you continue to repeat after it has been shown to be folly), can you tell me that I'm wrong in all my assesments. Actually, let me answer for you,
you couldn't. If right or wrong is based on ones own beliefs, no one can tell another that something is "good" "bad" "evil", etc... There has to be some standard outside of mankind that we can measure "goodness" "badness", etc... If not, this would be as
one person called it "Monkey Morality." Just do what ever makes you feel good. And of course, there are a lot of hurting people out there because men and women have done what makes them "feel good"
Think about this. With the position you are at least holding to philosophicaly (I say at least because you really can't consistantly live out your world-view), you would not be able to do the following:
1. You couldn't accuse others of wrongdoing.
2. " " complain about the problem of evil.
3. " " place blame or accept praise.
4. " " make charges of unfairness of injustice.
5. " " improve your morality.
6. " " hold a meaningful moral discussion.
7. " " promote the obligation of tolerance.
Again, as I stated above you can not truly live your way of thinking that everyone has their own idea of what is right and wrong and so leave it at that. This is called "relativism" and no one can truly life out
this so-called ethic. Because they do do some of the things, if not all listed above. But, if you think that whatever we think is right us and might not be right for other, the above applies.
Anyway, the last comment you make is "Live with it and help them choose the right way not be preaching to them but by being their friend."
First, what do you mean by choose the right. Second, why you do make such a dichotomy between "preaching" and "being their friend." Can one not do both. Also, if you think I'm just preaching, what are you doing in your responses?
Actually, by definition, preaching doesn't require a response. Preaching is proclaimation. It is one person talking to another, not requiring a response.
We are having a conversation/debate/discussion. I have been reading what you have posted and I trust your reading mine. And we are responding to each other. Just because I strongly disagree with you and am verbal about it, doesn't mean I'm preaching. If this is the case, you are doing the same with me, right?
You keep me on my toes and that is great. Thanks for making me think through and have to defend what I believe and why I believe it.
In Christ,
Jeff Downs