Posted by Bryan on July 01, 2007 at 20:57:22 (EST):
In Reply to: Re: Had enough posted by Jasper on July 01, 2007 at 16:56:01 (EST):
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :Thats why we need a real third party. I'm a libertarian and most people would say my vote is wasted. I say we need more people to wake up a realize that big government is taking over and stripping us of our rights and our ability to live the American dream. It's time to shake up both the Republicans and the Dems.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : A third party will not take place unless some huge changes are made and those changes will be difficult to initate unless there is some sort of quasi-revolution.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : The two-party system is too powerful with money, the media and influence. You can only go grassroots so far, but in time you will need money and media releases to even mount any type of challenge.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : The system is broke. I think what you would need first is some maverick candidates to get into power to upset the apple cart of the two-party system. The only problem with that is these types of people are usually demonized or victoms of scandals which the establishment uses to discredit them and jeopardizes their credibility and legitimacy.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : I guess some sort of quasi-revolution is what the country needs. I'm not suggesting a violent revolutionary war here, but a mass effort to get the facts out and wake people up. Yes I know that any attempt to do that would be met by the media and the two big parties with an attempt to make us sound like nut jobs and reactionary freaks who believe in every conspiracy theory ever floated. Thats why it is important to stick with proven facts and try to sway people without using fear tactics and and such. I think people truely are starting to see that we are in need of change. We just need to stick with it and grow our base so that we can step in when the time comes.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : Ross Perot didn't do bad in 1996.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : And they attacked him and made him look like some paranoid nutcase. Good example.
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: : : : : : : : : : : : Yeah, but I voted for him anyhow. There is talk he may run in 2008
: : : : : : : : : : : : And he got everyone's attention and everyone knows who he is. I'll bet most people remeber a lot of his talking points too because a lot of them made sense. We need to get a ew more guys to that point and then maybe it won't be so easy to paint them as nuts and forget about them.
: : : : : : : : : : Ralph Nader runs in every Presidential election and he's called "a spooler".
: : : : : : : : : :Ralph Nader is way too connected with some very fringe elements to be taken too seriously. He is too easy to ignore based on his rhetoric and that of his supporters which is pretty far out there. He runs for the very purpose of trying to be a spoiler and knows full well that he has no chance to win.
: : : : : : : : : We need people who are more in touch with the way the majority of Americans think and feel. We need someone who can expose the Reps. and Dems. for the being the entrenched power hungry beaurocracy that they are, without showing him/herself as some kind of nut. We also need to have more poeple like that elected to local and state offices and to prove themselves as individuals who want to serve the people rather than control them and shove unwanted and unneeded laws and legislation down the people's throats.
: : : : : : : : Well I disagree with you about Ralph Nader but I do agree that we need a third choice. Things are getting out of hand, but I'll bet you and I would disagree with what that would be.
: : : : : : : : After Ross Perot ran he started the Reform Party which was suppose to run candidates in federal, state and local elections. Grant Stapleton was the local leader of the Reform Party here. It didn’t last long but didn’t Jesse Ventura win the governorship in Minnesota running as a Reform Party candidate?
: : : : : : : Ventura did make it but he could not get anything passed due to gridlock. Towards the end of his tenure as governor, when he was contemplating re-election, they began attacking his family in the media.
: : : : : : : As for what Bryan said, I agree but do yourself a favor and look at the campaign financing that goes on behind the scenes. It is on the net. Look at Rep. Pyle and his Equitable Gas funding. Try other elected officials and look who is padding their pockets. Here is the link
: : : : : : : http://www.campaignfinance.state.pa.us/contributionsearch.aspx
: : : : : : : It would be an uphill battle. Ialso like how the legislators pad each other's pockets. If you and I are from one specific party, and I got a tough race coming up....the others in my party will kick in the dough.
: : : : : : That's why it has to start as a grass roots effort in local elections. Like I said, the other 2 parties are so entrenched in power and money that there is no chance to get rid of them unless "we the people" start showing them that we've had enough. We need good third party people in there. We also need to vote every bum out of office who doesn't do as he said he would. That would mean that we would have to actually pay attention and hold them to what they promise. Unfortunately, "We, the people," suffer from a major case of apathy and think that things will just work out to our benefit no matter who we ellect.
: : : : : : Yes, it is a huge uphill battle. Right now there are not enough people concerned about reform. I'm afraid that the concern may come too late - when the USA is in the tank. Great superpowers have come and gone before. We ignore history, continue on with our hedonistic ways and keep thinking that no one can touch us. Well, China has how many gazillions of people? ANd what is the fastest growing religion in China? And what do they fell about us here in the good old USA?
: : : : : : Honestly, I don't know what else to do though. any time I try to have this discussion I'm laughed at by the people around here who are still convinced that the Deocrats are for the little people, the working man, the blue collar folks (those who are left) and the republicans are for the big coorporations and want the little man to pay all the bills. IT'S NOT THAT WAY ANYMORE people!! They all have too much power and they don't want to give it up.
: : : : : You talk about throwing the bums out. Every elections we hear that. I thought this past election it may happen with the pay raise grab, but it didn’t. Yes, more than normal did get voted out but not enough to send a message. Rep. Pyle got voted back in even though he voted for the pay raise. Yes, later he said he was pressured by the powers that be, but that just showed me he had no spine and was not independent.
: : : : I am not a Pyle fan by any means, but I do not believe he voted for the pay raise. In fact, I am sure of it. But, the scoop around Harrisburg was that the young and freshman legislators were told not to vote for it due to them being relatively vulnerable at that time. The more senior members carried the load to get the pay raise passed, so the younger guys smelled like roses.
: : : : The question that has not been asked of Mr. Pyle and the question he has not addressed is why did he not speak up on the floor against the bill went it was being proposed? I believe everybody sat on their hands watching with no debate. Hmmm...sounds a little fishy for me. If you were against this so much, and you wanted to make a good impression as new representative for your contituents, then why the silence? Interesting. I believe he had every right to stand up and speak out against it, but he didn't. You can judge Jeff on the issues. I do not get into all the "bringin' home the money" theme we keep hearing from him. I look to see the people who are supporting him and the pockets exchanging money.
: : : I searched online and you're right, Pyle did vote no on the pay raise. Why is it that everyone complains about pork barrel spending but we rate our reps by how much money they bring back to their district?
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: : I am not one to really care that much on pork barrel spening issues in th elocal other than if the rest are doing it then we should also get our slice of pie.
: : I rate them on things such as social services for the elderly and disabled. I think health care is another issue that needs addressed. I do not car eif you want to call it socialized medicine or whatever else, but this issue needs addressed. If we do not want to enter into socialized medicine then our state senators and representatives should be addressing the issue of cracking down on these insurance companies.
: : Pyle has done absolutely nothing than talk a good game up to this point.
: I agree. They say we can't afford universal healthcare, but we seemed to find enough money to go kill Iraqis.
: You should care if it is "socialized healthcare." If you think that the government taking over health care insurance will make it better, you will be very disapointed. Before you get too mad at me for saying that though, let me also say that I agree with you in that it is an issue that needs addressed. It can be addressed through the use of private providers of health care insurance in a way that provides EVERYONE with affordable and in some cases, even free health care. Part of the problem here is that we are mislead and confused by all of the rhetoric. We are talking about health care insurance, not about health care itself. If the government took over, it would just mean that they now decide who gets what procedures and what price they would be willing to pay. There would still be people refused treatment, there would still be treatments that would be considered too expensive even though they may save a life. Do you really want to give the administration of ANYTHING else over to the government? Their medling in the situation is what is causing many of the problems in the first place. I'm not saying it isn't a nice idea to think that everyone will get the treatment they need and get it free if they can't afford to pay for it. I'm just saying that it is not a realistic idea. Often times nice dreams are just that. Be careful of looking to our government to solve all of our problems - it doesn't work that way.