Posted by jon on May 17, 2007 at 02:33:13 (EST):
In Reply to: Re: Nice try Mike..ha, ha posted by .. on May 17, 2007 at 00:38:46 (EST):
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : I was just watching channel 23. It looks like Solak got around 70% of the votes.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : It seems that there aren't quite as many cosolidationists as some would like to have us think.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : I'd be willing to bet that if Choncek and Rearic had any competition we would have seen a similar response in those races as well.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : Choncek and Rearic are from regions that are NOT afraid of change and progress, so you wouldn't see a similar response in those races.
: : : : : : : : : : : : : Peace.
: : : : : : : : : : : :
: : : : : : : : : : : : It's not about "change" or "progress". It's about not spending more money and raising our already ridiculous taxes.
: : : : : : : : : : : : It's also not about "region". The only reason Choncek and Rearic won in their "region" is because nobody else ran.
: : : : : : : : : : : Ford City is a dying town, the coucil is in turmoil. Get a few consolidation seats here and there soon you have a majority and Solak's vote means nothing.
: : : : : : : : : : Whats FC council have to do with it?
: : : : : : : : : I Say let Ford City keep their delapidated building they love so much. Minimal rennovations as they want. The school already is not producing scholars as the vote shows.
: : : : : : : : Why do you say that?
: : : : : : : : Apparently you feel that just because the people didn't vote the way YOU feel they should have they are not "scholars".
: : : : : : : : Typical of the consolidationist point of view..."Anybody who disagrees with me is stupid."
: : : : : : : : But okay, let's do what you are saying...let FC renovate. In that case there is absolutely no reason to be building a new school for Kittanning and Elderton. After all, Elderton only has a few kids and Kittanning has plenty of room.
: : : : : : : : This actually does sound good, because then we could shit-can however many teachers and other workers that are employed at Elderton which would offset the transportation costs of bringing the kids all the way into KHS.
: : : : : : : : You make a very good point.
: : : : : : : : Thanks Dodge!
: : : : : : : Did not assume they were not scholary because of your vote, but by their insistance of keeping a 100 year old delapidated building. By leaving their children fall behind in studies. Not one Ford City student went to the pjas contest. that is shamefull. a opportunity for a student to show what they have learned. Apparently as long as you have football everything is cool. so yes i say let your students get left behind. I don't want that for my kids. shit can elderton and send those kids packing to West Shamokin. Upgrade classes and opportunities for the kids who want to learn. we will let the kids who want to progress go these schools. The future ditch diggers can go to Ford city since you guys seem to be O.K. with the lack of learning potential at yor 100 year old school.
: : : : : : The age of a building has absolutely nothing to do with what caliber of students it turns out. That my friend, is the fault of poor instruction by inept teachers.
: : : : : : How old are the buildings at the Ivy League colleges?
: : : : : Traditions die hard and most people in general are resistant to change - it tends to make us humans a little uncomfortable when we are faced with the unfamiliar. It's a little unfair then to label Ford City people as being "afraid of change," as if they are the only ones.
: : : : : Maybe people have fond memories of school at Ford City and want their kids to have the same. Unfortunately we live in an area that seems to be even slower at being forward thinking and progressive than most. It shows in Kittanning and Worthington and Elderton and Ford City and Leechburg and Vandergrift and Apollo and any other small western Pa. town. We always liked to think of our towns as nice places to raise kids and live out a peaceful family life - who wants to let go of that?
: : : : : I'm not saying that that is how it should remain, only that it is a hard fight to win when you try to convince small town people around here to give up traditions and ways of thinking that have been imbedded here for 100 years. Putting them down and insulting them is probably not the most effective way of trying to get them to see the light. Maybe some honest, thoughtful, fair, and organized meetings with local citizens minus all the political banter might get the process started? Maybe not. It might be worth a try and what everyone is doing now doesn't seem to be working to well.
: : : : You are doing the same as all the other consolidation people try to do. You are acting as if holding on to "community schools" is the only reason anybody could possibly be against consolidation. It is not. I couldn't care less where the kids attend school.
: : : : It is an issue of cost.
: : : : Building a new school will not only cost more than the REQUIRED renovations for the 3 schools, it will quite easily surpass even the top tier renovations figures that are being used in the push for consolidation.
: : : : Transportation costs were phenomenal during the AC Central consolidation, and that did not even include the Elderton students.
: : : : Teaching staff cuts...You are an absolute FOOL if you believe that is ever going to happen.
: : : : Yes, Solak does mention a willingness to hold on to "communty schools". However, what he uses are facts and figures to prove that consolidation is going to cost the district much, much more money.
: : : : Maybe you should be looking more at the other end. The people for "change", who are "sick of the status quo"...ONLY have that on their side. They can't use facts and figures...because they are DEVASTATING to their case.
: : : : It reminds me of the idiots who vote fora candidate because, "change is good".
: : : : Change is not always good.
: : : It's not just the cost of renovations that will plague taxpayers. It's the continued service and maintenance of 3 high schools (Elderton, FC and Kitt) instead of one. That's simple economies of scale. The idea that you can save money by running one entity instead of three can be found in every business management textbook in the country. How's that for a fact.
: : : Solak "mentioning a willingness to hold onto community schools"? C'mon, I've NEVER heard him ever look at any other configuration besides the community school structure.
: : Yes, he HAS "looked at other configurations". For one he has "looked at" the Armstrong Central consolidation that was already proven to be the wrong thing to do...voted to be done...failed misserably becasue of costs...then reverted BACK in a DEconsolidation.
: : Solak is the only one who DOES look at any of the facts. All the others want to do is build a nice pretty new school...reguardless as to the cost.
: : Choncek and Rearic BOTH supposedly were not making any decisions until they knew the costs involved for ALL options. I have news for all...I have talked to BOTH of them...they are going to vote for a new consolidated school no matter what the costs are projected to be.
: : Also, be on the look out for ridiculously LOW estimates for this new school. They are going to furnish these in an attempt to make consolidation look like the thing to do. Mark my words, if a new school is built it will end up costing at least 1/2 again as much as it is originally projected to.
: : Let's look at West Hills. Even at the $14 million they originally said it would cost, not one but two studies showed it was not feasible...yet they did it anyway. Then the project ended up costing $25 million (37.5 % more than the projected costs). And guess what...our taxes are going UP next year.
: : If you think this was a mistake or an accident or the result of some "unforeseen circumstance" you gotta be a FOOL.
: I'm not sure why/how you can say that Solak is the only one that looks at facts. This entire argument is based on facts from both sides. The fact that we're facing some pretty big costs to renovate, the declining enrollments of students, the mediocre achievement test scores. These facts/figures have been looked at to a great degree. These facts/figures are the biggest reason why people want to look at other ways to do "business".
: And to say you've talked to both Choncek/Rearic and that they both will push for consolidation no matter what the costs is an outright lie.
: You say that even when the board does look at costs, they will "furnish" low numbers? It's always the same with people like you. You'll complain that they aren't taking a hard look at numbers. Then, when they do, you'll claim that the numbers they're looking at are false. It's a lose-lose situation.
: Okay, so let's move to the topic of West Hills. Yes, it cost more in the end than originally contracted. Nothing unusual or shady about that. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me to confirm or refute your numbers, but as I pointed out in a prior paragraph you have an inclination to not tell the truth, so I'll say your numbers are suspect at best.
: Anyhow, do you think some renovations would've been needed if North Buffalo, East Franklin and the original West Hills Elementary were looked at in this latest facilities master plan? I'm guessing that some of those estimates would've run into several million dollars. Guess what? We don't have to worry about any of those estimates because of successful consolidation of those schools. It's also successful for the fact that the number of teachers have been reduced at the new West Hills facility(according to the most recent staffing report), so that the district sees a savings of around $200,000 a year in saved salary/benefits. There's another fact for ya.
: And, if you think our taxes are going to be raised because of West Hills overruns, you're the one being foolish.
: Our taxes will be raised because we've been slowly but surely cutting away our reserve funds on trying to maintain these old buildings.
Okay, I'll address each set of "facts" you mentioned.
1. "pretty big costs to renovate" - This is referring to the whopping $128 million renovation figure the board threw out there.
A) This figure was for renovations to EIGHT schools in the district. Only THREE of these would be closed under a consolidation. So whatever needs done to the other schools will still need done.
B) The figure was origianally $136 million but was found to be a "miscalculation" because things were included in the price that should not have been.
C) The estimate was for the "top level" renovations meaning they included work that is not really neccessary for the schools to meet requirements. Even at this level the architect even said that all these renovations were not neccessary for all the schools.
D) Even at "top level" the 3 schools that would be affected only account for $75 million of the $128 million estimate. Why present the $128 million estimate? Because it makes renovation seem more costly, and makes it look as if a new school is feasible.
2. "declining enrollment"..
A) This one really cracks me up. They talk about "declining enrollment" one minute, then the next they are talking about how overcrowded the schools are and how amny kids there are in the classes.
B) Ford City is at near capacity.
C) Kittanning is at around 75%.
D) If they build a new consolidated school based on the "declining enrollment" what are they going to do if enrollment INCLINES 10, 15 or 20 years down the road? Are we then going to come back and build new "community" schools. I can see it now....20 years from now all these idiots on the board having grandkids on the board saying "We can't maintain the 'staus quo'. We need to be 'progressive' and 'unafraid of change' and abaandon this consolidation". Sounds ridiculous right? My Mom was in the first graduating class from KHS. Choncek and Rearic are my age.
3. "mediocre achievement test scores"..
A) This is a HILARIOUS argument. The age of the building is not going to effect these test scores at all.
B) If you want better test scores, you need better TEACHERS not better BUILDINGS.
C) If you really want to save money and have higher test scores, pay the teachers according to their ability to teach, not how many years they have in the district, or who they know on the board.
4. "And to say you've talked to both Choncek/Rearic and that they both will push for consolidation no matter what the costs is an outright lie."
A) I have talked to BOTH of them.
B) Consolidation is the sole reason BOTH of them ran for a board seat.
C) Both of them have told me we need to get this consolidation.
D) NIETHER of them has any idea how much a new school will cost, what transportation will cost or what the affect will be on the taxpayers.
E) Yet they already have it in their head that they are going to get this consolidation through. Just like therest of the board did with west Hills Elementary.
5. "...they will "furnish" low numbers?...lose-lose..."
A) It's already been proven that they do this crap.
B) They manipulate all the figures and even when they can't manipulate it ENOUGH (which they won't be able to with this)...they just flat out IGNORE it.
C) Just like with West Hills....Seriously...You absolutely do not have to look any further than here at all to see how they operate / manipulate.
6. West Hills..."suspect at best"?!?!?
A) Look it up! Where have you been? It was originally to cost $14 million and ended up costing $25 million. This is far..FAR from an amount that can be contributed to "miscalculations" or "overuns".
7. "Anyhow, do you think some renovations would've been needed if North Buffalo, East Franklin and the original West Hills Elementary were looked at in this latest facilities master plan?"
A) Yes, most definately they would have. It was shown in the figures. The same figures that no less than TWO studies showed it was not feasible to do so.
8. "We don't have to worry about any of those estimates because of successful consolidation of those schools"
A) No we don't have to worry about it. It's too late, what's done is done. The mistake has already been made, now we have to live with it.
B) Yes it was big "success". They "successfully" spent $25 million and next year they will "successfully" RAISE our taxes.
C) Wasn't West Hills supposed to SAVE the district money?
9. "The number of teachers AT WEST HILLS has been reduced."
A) Take a look at the number of teachers they say have been reduced FROM WEST HILLS.
B) Think about it for God's sake! If they say theyve saved $200,000, at the absolute very most that's FIVE teachers.
C) Let's also talk about the fact that they should ahve been able to reduce all the rest of the staff. Office workers, cafeteria, nurse, custodial....All they reduced it by was $200K.
D) Okay, let's say they are being truthful about the reduction in number of teachers. Let's say just one teacher. There's a MINIMUM of $40,000. Taking the saving from cutting other postions down to $160K. Com'on now!! Are you really buying this? They closed two schools and were only able to eliminate that much from the budget?
E) You honestly think there will be a subsatantial saving if the three high schools are consolidated?...Com'on!
10. "And, if you think our taxes are going to be raised because of West Hills overruns, you're the one being foolish"
A) No. I am not saying that is the ONLY reason. I will however say that an $11 million "overun" definately had a major part in it.
B) I will aslo say that if they hadn't went $14 million over on that project, they wouldn't be raising our taxes next year.
Our taxes are going up because THEY (not WE) have been purposely neglecting these buildings, blowing money on studies, blowing money on new constructions, and overpaying the teachers.
Oh, also there's the fact that they just give the bus companies whatever they ask for.