Posted by Maxx on March 04, 2007 at 13:09:17 (EST):
In Reply to: Re: ASD part3 posted by amazed on March 02, 2007 at 21:47:42 (EST):
Here I’ll post some more evidence of black holes. These all come from space.com web site. “Astronomers have spied a small black hole nestled in the middle of a packed star cluster, a region not typically thought to be very black hole-friendly.
About 10 times more massive than our Sun, the black hole was found inside a globular cluster in the elliptical galaxy NGC 4472, located some 50 million light-years away from Earth in the Virgo Cluster. A black hole is an object whose mass is so concentrated that nothing, not even light, can escape the strong pull of its gravity from within a certain distance”, and “SEATTLE – The discovery of three distant supermassive black holes in proximity to one another is giving astronomers a glimpse into the chaotic early years of the universe.
But to use your example of the bear, you could use the bear tracks as evidence. What else would leave bear tracks but a bear. A deer wouldn’t leave bear tracks. A raccoon wouldn’t leave bear tracks. So if you saw bear tracks you would know that a bear and only a bear made them. The same goes for evidence of a black hole.
You are right I didn’t ask you who was the designer, I ask you who was the creator. You didn’t answer. But you do say it is a “possibility” for an intelligent designer to have created the universe. Why? What is the evidence for that? I like what Carl Sagan said about this. He said something like, why complicate the creation of the universe by injection a creator or designer. It’s not needed. I just find it interesting that you disregard most of these sound scientific theories but find it possible for an intelligent designer when there is no evidence for that.
Actually you did say what should and shouldn’t be taught in schools. You said, “Actually, the argument could be made that they not only shouldn't be taught as fact, but they shouldn't be taught at all”. But yes, I am saying if it isn’t sound scientific theory or fact it should not be taught in schools.
I’m saying that ID is not sound scientific theory and shouldn’t be taught. It is not just another theory. Take religion out of ID and you have nothing. You asked “isn’t that what they did back when Columbus said the Earth was round”. No. This is a myth. During the time of Columbus most already knew the Earth was round. But I will say if you and I lived about 400+ years ago you would be arguing with me that the Earth was the center of the universe because that’s what the Church said. It was at that time that Galileo Galilei had the theory that the Earth was not the center of the universe and was thrown in jail for blasphemy and almost put to death. Science always trumps religion.
What “being” are you talking about which created everything. How about the Flying Spaghetti Monster? The next question would be, who or what created that being?
You said, “That would depend on at what point this being created everything”. That would mean evolution was already going on, so why did it need a designer?
You also said, “Maybe this being created the small piece of condensed matter that the Big Bang came from.” That would mean this being would have to be very powerful, like a GOD, to do that!
You go on about your version of evolution, but what you forget is we have the fossil record that shows how things evolved. That’s the proof, so we do know.
I’m not sure why you are trying to take this argument into god being in the schools or not, but you are wrong about kids not being allowed to pray in schools. Kids are free to pray anytime they want. What isn’t allowed is for the school to led this pray. That’s another myth and I’ll repeat again, “under god” was never taken out of the pledge. As I said Michael Newdow filed a lawsuit and won, put the school district appealed and they won in the court of appeals. So it was never taken out. If you insist it has, please show your proof. I have no idea why you are bringing in flag burning. Doesn’t fit.
What you described is how gravity works, not what it is. Here are a few web sites for your viewing pleasure, “New Theory of Gravity. A Brief Introduction, http://www.allanstime.com/UnifiedFieldTheory/gravity.htm, “Warning: Gravity is Only A Theory”, http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p67.htm (here’s the first sentence: The Universal Theory of Gravity is often taught in schools as a “fact,” when in fact it is not even a good theory”) and “Gravity theory dispenses with dark matter”, http://space.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8631. I could post more but I think you can do this yourself, just use a search engine and put in “theory of gravity”, it all comes up. So I’m not arguing that there are laws of gravity, there is. We just don’t know what it is.
Yesterday on the Science Channel they had a show on called A Cosmic Odyssey. They explained that the evidence for the Big Bang was that the universe was expanding (which is what I said) but scientist have come up with better proof. At the time of the massive explosion (Big Bang) there would have been also a massive flash of light energy. They thought the flash should still be visible somewhere in the universe so they started to search for it. The recently found it. It was in the X-ray spectrum and it further proves the Big Bang. The show also talked about the Inflation Theory (which you bring up), which I really don’t understand.
You asked why the planets aren’t expanding. I can’t believe you asked that question, but I guess I do if you believe that aliens created the universe and populated the Earth or that ID is a good theory that show be taught along side other scientific theories. The planets, nor the sun, were not around during the Big Bang. They were created billions of years later. But the planets and Sun are expanding. The Sun is traveling through space around the center of the Milky Way galaxy which is also traveling through space. So you see they are expanding.
You asked how they know the universe is expanding at a steady rate? Atoms emit or absorb light in characteristic wavelengths: hydrogen, helium, and all the other atomic elements have their own spectrum signatures. In the early part of this century, Vesto Slipher was studying the spectra of light emitted from nearby galaxies. He noticed that the light coming from many galaxies was shifted toward the red, or longer wavelength, end of the spectrum. The simplest interpretation of this "redshift" was that the galaxies were moving away from us. Edwin Hubble was the first to see this. He came up with Hubble’s Law (a LAW not a theory) which says that galaxies are receding from us at a velocity proportional to their distance. The more distant the galaxy, the greater its redshift, and therefore the higher the velocity, a relation known as Hubble's Law. So this should be taught in schools as fact, right?
The thing about scientific theory is that they are constantly being tested, refined. As I said in the very beginning of all this, as we learn more theories are refined, added to or thrown out for a better theory. That is something religious based ID doesn’t do.