Re: The Games People Play

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: : : : : : : : : : : : : : This current administration in the White House has done some grave damage to the common working man. Sure, Democrats like Bill clinton have passed some legislation that had a negative effect on the working man and families (see NAFTA)but this current President is stuffing it down the public's throat as an act of morality. They are disguising it as a religious mandate, but once we have a President who stays silent as pensions are being eliminated for people who has given their blood, sweat and tears in appeasing the company, only to find out years later that their pension is being held as a non-consideration, we got problems, people. Major problems!!! : : : : : : : : : : : : : : I truly believe that they are pushing the envelope to see how far they can push the envelope before the American people speak up. : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Where is Jeff Pyle on this subject? : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Where is Don White on this subject? : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Where is Rick Santorum on this subject? : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Where is George W. Bush on this subject? : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Nobody wants to touch this hot potato. : : : : : : : : : : : : : : This stinks for Republicans and Democrats who are not brainwashed about this mixing of relgion and politics. We wre in some critical times. They want to talk about the Social Security "supposed" crisis, but why haven't they spoke about the pensions being lost? : : : : : : : : : : : : : : I did not ever believe that it could be this bad under one President, but now it comes to fruition. Where are the supporters of this President and the GOP morality base? Where is the morlaity when corporations think profit over their workers? The workers that made them as they are today. People are sick. They have got this belief about a higher moral standard being bigger than the financial security of the people. We are deteriorating nation and nobody cares as long as the corporations make their profit, either through profit or the government. : : : : : : : : : : : : : : You had one poster on here claiming to own businesses and they traveled the world. This poster liked to say that other posters, those that confronted him, just wanted to government to be their mommies. Where are they at? Guess who picks up the tab for these retirees who have their pensions dropped? The government!!!!! This is white-collar welfare!!!! : : : : : : : : : : : : : : I hope some people wake up and see that abortion rates are higher than ever under this Presidency. No propoganda, the facts show it. : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Have we become this dumb and gullible to buy this bag of goods of morlaity while everything else is going to hell in this country? : : : : : : : : : : : : : Clinton is not only responsible for NAFTA, but also for granting China "Most Favored Nation" status. This is a big reason why we have a hard time buying things that are NOT made in China. I'm not talking about buying ONLY American which we should all try to do. Almost EVEYTHING we buy in this country is Chinese. Hardly any of it is made anywhere else and almost none of it is made in the U.S. : : : : : : : : : : : : : The damage you are talking about was done LONG ago. There are things THIS administration could do to change things, and I think they should. But the best things they could do are UNDOING things that have ALREADY been done. : : : : : : : : : : : : : So when you say "This current administration in the White House..." you need to place the blame where it belongs. We wouldn't be in this situation if it were not for NAFTA and Chinas M.F.N. staus. : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : The chicken littles in the White House now are the ones who run around the country screaming about Social Security going bankrupt. They have not said a peep about this judge's ruling. Like I said, what agenda is being met here. Gee-Dubbya is sitting in the captain's chair, and a goo leader would have come out and at the very, very least spoke against the ruling, but no, not him. A good leader would have gathered his pesonnel and formed a task force to review and evaluate the pension situation in this country and draw up a proposal to counter this ruling. Nobody is asking him to bully the courts, instead, try and a find a solution to the problem. These companies should have stricter laws in regards to bankruptcies. Bush pushed the new bankruptcy law for the individual, funny how he has not pushed for one with the corporations. So, yes it is the crrent adminstration's responsibility. Let's not try and dish this off to somebody else, please. : : : : : : : : : : : : As far as NAFTA is concerned, if you look at the hitsory of NAFTA ideology it goes back almost three decades. The actual writing of NAFTA was done under Ronald Reagan. It was proposed to Congress under Bush I, and then signed by Bill Clinton. Gee-Dubbya is looking to sign CAFTA by the end of the year or the beginning of 2006. : : : : : : : : : : : : China is the new industrial giant. Yes, Clinton did make them favored nation status and thus plays into what I HAVE been saying. The favored nation status was initiated not to aid the working people of the U.S. or even the working people of China. It was put into place to favor the American corporations. Corproations who have sold out the American worker and the American standard of living for higher profits. : : : : : : : : : : : : I would like to a President (of whatever affiliation - GOP, Dem, Green, The Dean Martin party) stand up in front of the American people and say he or she is committed to evening out the playing field when it comes to trade. We have nowhere to go but down with the current situation. Every country based on basic consumerism has failed. We are going to encounter huge deficits with our spending budgets and our trade. : : : : : : : : : : : : The current President has the opportunity to open a free trade agreement if they feel that is not being utilized correctly. I will give you the Clinton years as being part of the problem, but to make this administration Teflon is almost comical. : : : : : : : : : : : So where are you here? : : : : : : : : : : : First you say that the CURRENT administration is responsible for everything now, then you say that Clinton isn't responsible for NAFTA...it was the fault of prior administrations...even it was enacted during HIS administration and HE signed it. : : : : : : : : : : : You can't have it both ways. Or maybe in your world you can. : : : : : : : : : : What I am saying is that NAFTA was going to be signed into action by Clinton or George I, if he was re-elected. You can go back and look at his endorsement of it prior to leaving office. : : : : : : : : : : I am also saying that everybody who is enamored with the so-called morality President does not want to admit that things have not changed that much compared to when Clinton was in office. Although I would say that the economic risks are reaching maximum levels at this point in time, and we have not heard or seen any resolution to this. : : : : : : : : : : Do a Google search and tell me if Gee-Dubbya is or is not endorsing the signing of CAFTA during his tenure in office? : : : : : : : : : : There is something else overlooked here with the Gee-Dubbya regime. They have almost total authority over the country right now. They have the House, the Senate, and the Executive Branch. If this guy is so great like some make him out to be then why aren't we even seeing proposals to counter some of these things that are occurring? They are basically ignoring that these things are ven occurring. : : : : : : : : : : You have tax cuts during a war. The states are going bankrupt which leads to local services being eiither eliminated or local taxes being raised through the roof. Somebody has to pay for these things. : : : : : : : : : : Back to the pensions, if you look at the quotes from the Bush advisers, they say that pensions have grown under the umbrella of being treated as a "social service." These pensions were EARNED by the workers!!! So, once again, not to get sidetracked on NAFTA, why isn't the Bush cronies addressing the elimination of pensions. The more companies that go belly up; the more money that comes out of your pocket to pick up the tab for the government to pay these people partial pensions. : : : : : : : : : : Does Bush have the backing to at the very least propose some changes to help the working man and put some reins of the corporations? Yes or no? : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : YES he has the backing...but NO he can't get anything done because the Dems won't let the system work as it was meant to. : : : : : : : : : Back to NAFTA and Most Favored Nation. : : : : : : : : : Who SIGNED NAFTA?...Clinton. : : : : : : : : : Who granted China Most Favoered Nation status?...Clinton. : : : : : : : : : When speaking of the Bush administration, it often said..."The buck stops here!" But if you are going to say that about the CURRENT administration, you must also say it about the PAST administrations. : : : : : : : : : Fair is fair. : : : : : : : : : Now, a good example. They are trying to make China revalue it's currency which would make a more level playing field for U.S. industry and slow the flood of Chinese goods into the country. : : : : : : : : : I will applaud Bush if he signs this and condem him if he vetoes it. : : : : : : : : : Here's the problem. : : : : : : : : : If Bush signs it NOW and it does wonders for industry during the NEXT presidency, people like you will attribute it to THAT president. : : : : : : : : : If he vetos it and the country continues to spiral downward, you will blame it on Bush's veto, completely absolving that president of any wrong doing. : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : I have to wonder if you even understand the issues. You refuse to admit that the GOP has the majority right now and like they have said, they could go nuclear and pass anything. They have not EVEN PROPOSED, or even SPOKEN about anything to protect the American worker. are you getting it or do you want to keep hijacking the thread with other issues because you cannot find the answers. : : : : : : : : I have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to him signing it now??? Do you know what CAFTA is? How will he gain success by signing this? Since it looks like you have no idea about CAFTA, this trade treaty will have a direct impact on the agriculture industry, unlike NAFTA which had heavy impact on the manufacturing industry. : : : : : : : : You are so obsessed with Clinton it is pitiful. Did Rick Santorum favor NAFTA and GATT? You have not answered the question of what would have happened if George I got re-elected? He would not have signed on to NAFTA? Let me get some clarity from you. If we would have a GOP President for the next 30 years, your type of people would still blame Bill Clinton. AS I stated over and over, I did not like Clinton. I cannot even name you one real good thing he accomplished, but I am not naive enough to forgo any blame on this mess that is in office right now. That is where we seperate. : : : : : : : : Get out of the box, ther eis whole world out there for you. : : : : : : : If there is anybody who doesn't understand, it is you. : : : : : : : Please stop talking about this "box" you seem obsessed with. : : : : : : : Why don't YOU try to face the issue being talked about. I never mentioned CAFTA at all. What I wrote about was the fact that you seem to want to place blame on the current administration but you do not want to place any blame on the past administrations, be it Clinton or whoever. : : : : : : : I understand CAFTA completely. Believe me CAFTA wouldn't have NEARLY as bad an affect as NAFTA has. : : : : : : : At least the Canadians have money to BUY some of our products. How often do you here about Canadians sneaking across the boarder to pick oranges for less than min wage? : : : : : : : I was taliking about Bush signing legislation to force China to revalue thier currency. : : : : : : : But let's go ahead and use CAFTA as an example. : : : : : : : If Bush signs CAFTA you will be more than happy to put all the blame on him and his administration. Yet you completely deny that NAFTA or the granting of China's M.F.N. status was Clinton's fault. I use Clinton as an example merely because he was the last one in office. : : : : : : : You have to give credit where credit is due and place blame where blame is due. : : : : : : : You cannot pick and choose. : : : : : : : : : : : : ahhh........CAFTA is the Central American Free Trade Agreement not Canada Free Trade Agreement. I think you may want to know what it is first. : : : : : : Second, look at the post above George H. Bush actually signed NAFTA it was ratified under Clinton. : : : : : : Third, I agree with you 100% that I pick and choose, because I believe that is alot more sane than sticking my head in GOP box or Dem box and not thinking for myself like you. : : : : : : Catch up on some reading. (wink) : : : : : What do you think ratified means? : : : : : The North American Free trade Agreementwas signed INTO LAW by President Clinton on December 8, 1993, and took effect on January 1, 1994.... : : : : : That is a fact. : : : : : Look it up. : : : : : So...if CAFTA is signed by the next president who ARE you going to blame? Just curious. : : : : : When did I say it WAS the Canadian Free Trade Agreement? : : : : : CAFTA is being negotiated, with Central America, IN PATNERSHIP with CANADA. : : : : : But like I said, I never even mentioned CAFTA. You are the one who brought that up. : : : : : Quit winkin' at me Homo. I guess that's why you are so Anti-Box. : : : : : : : : Here we go with the names, again. Must be getting frustrated that things are not going your way, again. The orignal agreement was signed by George H. Bush in 1992. So, you want to ignore that, fine with me. : : : : CAFTA will probably be endorsed in a bi-partisan effort by both antiquated parties. I will serve the blame up the same as I did NAFTA. It did not matter if it was Clinton or George H. Bush, it was going to get send signed. That is my whole point!!!! Are you getting it, now?? Twas blind ut now I see!!! I will break it down so you can understand it better. You are the one who keeps pinning the sole blame on Clinton. I have acknowledged that I do not like Clinton. I do not like Bush I, either. : : : : Let's bring it home, so you can HOPEFULLY see the whole picture. You blame Clinton for it, but YOU do not want to admit George W. is supporting the same thing with CAFTA. : : : : My whole point is that the acting President at this time, be it a Dem or George W. Bush should be trying to resolve some of these problems we are facing. As the current President, he is not doing that. You and others keep wanting to make excuses for him. The "it is all Clinton's fault" rhetoric is old and outdated. : : : : So why do I consider his Presidency more of a mess than others? Is this your question? The spending is going through the roof. We have a mismanged war going on. The trade deficit has hit new records under his watch. The states have lost out on funding. Healthcare costs are hit astronomical highs. Tuition cost has reached new highs. Services are being cut across the board on county, state, and federal levels. We are expecting to pass on to the future generations an unimaginable debt with cronyism programs like Medicare Part D and Social Security Reform. : : : : Do you want more or are you going to keep blaming Clinton? : : : : The current administration is a train wreck and the dumbing down of America is letting it occur without a voice of protest due to many of them thinking that the Bush presidency is more about morality. : : : : Anymore names? Let's hear your excuses in defense of the Bushies. This ought to be good, but people are beginning to see the hypocrisy in it all. : : : : : Let's see if you'll just admit this.... : : : A simple one name answer is all I want to see here. : : : No lengthy string, just the correct answer and nothing more. : : : Who signed NAFTA and made it a LAW for the United States? : : : Not who-all signed NAFTA, but who is the one person who made it a law? : : : : : : : See, this is why I find you people so entertaining. Shrug off responsibility. Then, you want to set the rules of conversation, because you know a one-word answer would try to make you look a little itnelligent (Canda and CAFTA, right.) : : Bill Clinton signed NAFTA it into law, but it had to be endorsed by the Senate which it was. : : George H. Bush signed the original NAFTA agreement entering the U.S. into the agreement in 1992!!!! Like I said, if you want to leave Bush out of it, that is fine. Ignorance is bliss. I will not play your game, instead I will tell you how government works, since you are having problems comprehending, again. : : I will let it stand as is, because I think my point has been well made a few times, especially the part where it shows you do not what you are talking about and you will never admit to something that goes against your beliefs. But, this is the way of the land anymore. : : Facts are facts... : Isn't that what you're always saying?

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